This is the full text of the four-part interviews series, that Terry O’Neill conducted with Gary Spiers as the subject. The series commenced in FIGHTING ARTS MAGAZINE in 1986. “Yes I do make my living out of fighting, and it’s true that a large percentage of my oppenents end up in the hospital, because I’m good at what I do…..I have spent the past twenty-five years learning do do just that….and no, I do not see anything wrong in using Karate for that purpose….to me that’s what the martial arts are for, for heaven’s sake!”
Introduction
The opening quote is indicative of the hard-line approach expressed by interviewee, Gary Spiers during our four and a half hours of taped conversation. l met this big New Zealander in 1970 in Tokyo, where he was living at the time. Discovering that we had a lot in common - a mutual love of karate and we both had been employed in the physical security field - we became friends. When he was ready to leave Japan, l encouraged him to come to England. This he did, settled in Liverpool and he has been here ever since (we can’t get rid of him - only joking). We began training together and he started teaching his style of karate - Goju-Kai.
During the first year of his stay, Gary tried to obtain work in his trade - as a slaughterman butcher, but due to the high unemployment situation in the area, he was unsuccessful and soon found himself back at his old job of what is commonly termed ‘bouncing’, or ‘minding’ on night club doors. That’s what I was doing at the time - which left my days free for Karate, and I had no difficulty at all in finding Gary ‘Security work’ in Liverpool, which has probably the largest percentage of night clubs, discotheques etc. of anywhere in Gt Britain. He was tailor-made for the job actually… With his size: around 6 foot and 240 Ibs. (at that time, nowadays he is 280 Ibs. plus - that’s 20 stone!)… his ability: along with lots of wrestling and judo ‘know how, he’d left Japan with a sandan (3rd degree Black Belt) from Master Cogen Yamaguchi (’The Cat’).. .and his experience: he’d worked for years on night spots and working mens clubs in Australia.
For a period of time, Gary operated several successful karate dojo and even earned a placing in the all-styles British Karate Team, which he represented in the heavyweight division (of course!) in Europe. However it was not long before this powerful, karate-ka’s ability at quelling disturbances and Sorting-out previously ‘unsort-outable’ thugs and villains, earned him a quite formidable reputation. This in turn, let to an increasing demand for his services in and around Liverpool - a city that unarguably has more than its fair share of ‘hard cases’…even the scousers who can’t fight want to! Gary has, consequently become more and more heavily involved in this dangerous vocation, which he terms as a professional security advisor… “Bouncers are bra-less ladies out jogging aren’t they?”
He still practices karate (and teaches several small groups of students) but it is now a work-related karate … that is to say its not the usual balanced blend that most other practitioners of the art adhere to. From the first rei (bow) to the last rei of the practice, Gary specifically gears his training to his line of work -which is close range personal combat in ‘live’ situations.� As a consequence, his karate is actually a lot better than it looks. The style and correctness of form that earned him his yondan (4th degree) from Master Yamaguchi in 1975 has deteriorated, but commensurate� with this loss of “appearance has been an increase in the knowledge, ability and general street ’savvy that keeps him - most of the time anyway -in one piece Paying scant attention to finesse, his 1986 brand of combat-karate (my description - not his) is crude, limited in repertoire, often messy and always vicious… but then the people it is designed to cater for, all have that last commodity in abundance.
Whatever qualities it lacks though, effectiveness is not one of them. Over the years, a number of people have attempted to stab and slash Gary with assorted blades - some have succeeded, as is evidenced by an interesting collection of scars (interspersed between his even more interesting network of Maori style tattoos). He has been hit with clubs, barstools, bottles and some objects he didn’t even see-just felt… and been the subject of gang attacks - some spontaneous.� but others have been specifically orchestrated� with him as a target
I also personally know of several quite hair-raising incidents/encounters that the interviewee has had, that he most definitely has no Wish to talk about. All I will say about them is that Gary was never the instigator, but the people who were… suffered considerably. And deservedly so in my opinion, but the authorities, who became involved, saw only the final results.., so that will be all on that subject. The point is, how he managed to survive some very nasty attacks in the manner in which he did, amazed even me… and l did the same job for 17 years.
Whether or not you agree with what Gary Spiers does for a living or whether you find his attitude, views and behaviour harsh, or in fact question the rationale that motivates him, is not of prime concern to me. What is, as Editor of ‘F.A.I.’ is that readers find his story interesting… I hope you do.
DEVELOPMENT OF A FIGHTER
[Gary performing an elbow strike on his student Reg]
FAI: When did you first start training in the martial arts?
GARY-You mean martial arts as in the Asian martial arts or combative physical activity?
FAI-The latter . . .
One of my earliest memories - it was my first-ever pinup -� was a centre-page from the ‘Ring Magazine’ It was a close-up of Rocky Marciano’s fist splitting Jersey Joe Walcot’s nose in half with a punch. I wanted to box at 7 years old, but my mother would not allow me to do this, so I started wrestling instead, and I really loved it. I loved it that much that since that time, I have always spent a large Proportion of my waking hours in gymnasiums and dojo (training halls) all over the world, learning and practicing combat. I remember my mother constantly giving me earache and criticizing the fact that I spent so much of my time learning to fight … but then she didn’t have my arguments at school and she didn’t have to defend herself to and from school or on the rugby field, where, because
of my large size, I found myself up against older, wiser people.
FAI-Were you an aggressive child?
GARY-Yes … but I believe it was forced on me. My parents were warned several times to put me into something to take the aggression out of me before I got into serious trouble. Apparently I was always in fights as a youngster, but you see at that time, in the early fifties, New Zealand was inundated with immigrants of every European culture who brought over all their ethnic, religious and political bullshit with them. Their kids obviously reflected their attitudes and in a school of say, a thousand pupils, a good 40% were immigrants. Now, through no fault of my own, I have Maori blood in me - of which I am in fact extremely proud. However, in that school at that time, there were only about seven of us with Maori heritage. As a consequence, because we were the smallest group, we got the most ’stick’.
The main fellow who taught me wrestling is worth mentioning here. He was a fairground fighter who used to nightly take on all-comers - he’d also fill in for the boxer if he wasn’t available - sometimes they would take a hammering from an unknown challenger and be unable to put in an appearance. Now he was so good - I did not realize just how good until later on when I was exposed to other forms of training and trainers. I realized just how lucky I had been to have him as my first teacher when I compared what he taught to the stuff that was being handed out under the heading of self-defence around the country and the wrestling that was being taught at schools and colleges. The collegiate wrestling that I watched being taught was nice and by that I mean they had locker rooms and showers - a nice environment - and on the mat, they did classical, dead-correct wrestling moves . . . and they wouldn’t have handled him - my teacher - for one minute, because of his fighting know-how and super experience at taking on anybody and everybody who cared to climb through the ropes to face him!
Anyway, as I said, once I started combative training, I have never stopped. Wherever I would travel to find work - all over New Zealand and Australia - I would find a gym to work out in. The first thing I’d look for in a strange place was accommodation and the next thing I’d find would be a gym - ’cause I loved it! My friends would go to the pub after work and I used to go to a gym.
FAI-How did you get into the Asian methods?
GARY-During my teens I became interested in karate - I’d heard about all these special blows and kicks that they did and I eventually read E. J. Harrison’s book, “Manual of Karate”. But at first I started practicing judo. I was working at a big meatworks in N.Z. - that’s what I am by trade, a butcher or slaughterman - and I met a chap from Auckland called Charlie Sterling. He was only a brown belt but that was a high grade at that time and I began training with him, not only because I admired his judo but I also liked the way in which he conducted his life. He was a thorough gentleman. At this point, I’d like to say that it has been my experience that the more physically competent that people are, the more confidence they have in their own personal lives and the more gentlemanly this makes them. Because they don’t have things to prove, the minimum of aggression is normally displayed by these type of people in their everyday lives.
So I was learning to throw, trip, hold down, apply locks, strangles and chokes - I found it very interesting and easy to do, because of my wrestling training. I also found it very effective, because it taught you the ability to get hold of clothes, which everybody wears and it’s very practical to say, choke people with their own jacket. This and other judo techniques I learnt have a great usefulness outside the environment of the gym and I particularly liked that aspect of it.
FAI-Why the preoccupation with street effectiveness?
GARY-Well, I was working in a job where you had knives in your hands all day - I was living on a work-camp where there was all kinds of gambling, drinking, bringing women back to the camp on a day-to-day basis … I was a pretty young fellow (pretty? . . . Editor) at the time and that was what is regarded by contemporary society as a very hard life-style. The fact that in the canteen, you were quite liable to lose your issue of food to some older, bigger and harder fellow, or if you had a nice motor bike parked outside or a nice sports coat and he wanted to borrow it - if you refused you would be promptly bashed. A regular thing that used to happen to the younger fellows - the boy butchers - was that when they got paid, the older, harder ones would ask them for a loan and it would never be repaid - no matter how many times you asked - unless you were willing to fight over it and then if you took second place, you still wouldn’t get your money back. So this creates a pressure - it’s commonly called bullying.
There was someone teaching karate in N.Z. at that time but no one could tell me where it was at - it was all conducted in semi-secrecy and all that nonsense. Anyway I travelled to Australia for work and it was in Brisbane that I first began formal karate training - I’d be around 19 years old at that time. There was a chap running a dojo - it was called Okinawan Shorei style. His name was John Ryan and I liked what I saw there - they didn’t have the hand dexterity or the bobbing and weaving of boxers, nor the rough and tumble of wrestling but I liked the kicks. I realized that if I could learn the kicking, it would augment the ability I already had at grappling. I also liked the aspect that they trained you to fight several people at once. So I trained there for a while until my work took me away from Brisbane. I trained at various other dojos including one called the Silvertop Karate Club. Now. Silvertop was the name of a big taxi firm and they had specifically brought over two really good Korean Tae Kwon Do instructors - they called their style Moo Duk Kwan as I recall. Mr. Kim was the name of one of them and I’m not sure of the other one but he was also a 6th dan at judo or yudo as the Koreans call it. Anyway, Silvertop had engaged them because two taxi drivers working for the company had been murdered - had their throats cut in robberies. So these Koreans were brought out for the specific purpose of training the company’s employees to defend their bloody selves! One of the founder members of the club was Jack Rozinsky, who is a well-known figure on the martial arts scene today in Australia.
Another teacher I trained under was Mr. Kato, who was one of Mas. Oyama’s good Kyokushinkai people - a very fast, hard karate man. I liked that training - the Kyokushinkai in Australia got real good by fighting each other all the time and they kicked the groin immediately - other systems didn’t concentrate on that kind of thing.
Now, karate was becoming more and more popular and lots of schools were opening up but I wasn’t too impressed by a lot of what I saw. I used to go all over the place to train sometimes I’d pay a whole year’s affiliations just for a handful of lessons before my work would force me to move on. And I would find that, in many instances, I’d go to train or watch a karate class and I would not reckon much to the teacher’s chances against me in a real fight.
FAI-Surely that wouldn’t stop you training under him?
GARY-Yes, of course it did. I only wanted to be taught by people who looked more proficient in combat than I was. See, I’m a big person, I come from a large race of people and I’ve always thought a good combat teacher should have the capacity to put someone of my size out of the game.� I never thought I could have ‘copped for’ (beaten in a fight - Editor) either of the Koreans, nor the Japanese, Kato, and that’s why I stayed with them for as long as I could. In some of the karate clubs that I attended, we were given thousands of push-ups to do - that was not what I wanted I joined one karate club - the first Goju training I ever did and although the instructor, Tino Ceberano was excellent himself and he taught me real good ways of using kin-geri (groin kicks) and kansetsu-geri (Joint-kicks) etc., etc.. he constantly stressed all the time that we must not touch at all in the sparring - and that I could not understand nor agree with. Another policy that many of these people had was to take you for a run. Well, if I had wanted to run I’d have continued playing rugby … running has a lot to do with stamina if you intend fighting a number of 3-minute rounds. But my object has always been - because the situations I find myself in have always demanded it - to finish my opponents off as quick as possible, before they can get support from other people. So it used to actually annoy me to pay a training fee to learn karate, go along to a dojo and be taught how to run - I thought it was wrong.
FAI-Well, I can’t agree with your sentiment that any karate instructor, that you felt you could best in the street, had nothing to teach you . . .
GARY-Well, O.K., I didn’t mean what I previously said as a blanket ruling … it is just that I was that interested in learning good techniques that I went to every conceivable place that I could go. In a lot of karate schools that I went, they only kicked and punched the air. You had no way of knowing how strong your blows were. They deliberately barred any form of contact whatsoever. And if I thought that they didn’t have some proficiency at hurting me - I used to get frustrated and leave. It used to really frustrate me, marching up in line. just hitting the air - I liked to hit things and people. And I never minded being hit back if I had dropped my guard or made a mistake, because to me that’s what it is all about.. . the avoidance of pain and the retaliatory dishing out of pain!
I liked the Okinawan system of training when I got to Okinawa, because they utilize a lot of striking pads and other equipment in their training. I liked the Tae Kwon Do because they used to put you in half-armour and you immediately learnt how to hit each other - you’d start out slowly, Just touching and then build the speed up as you got more used to it. A lot of the ju-jitsu type systems being taught at that time were strong contact systems - you had to work to get the lock on him, you had to work to get any shime-waza (strangles, chokes) on him, etc.
I have been to lots and lots of different schools in my time and sparred with them whenever possible. I’ve even tried some French Savate, where the guys were incredibly supple - as in the ballet - but really, all I had to do was to charge in and I’d have them all on the floor.
What you have to understand is that I was living a totally different lifestyle to the average citizen, who simply does not put his physical well-being on the line for the sake of a job. I was travelling around the country on my own, with one bag full of my working tools, another bag full of clothes and my sole finance in my back pocket. Everywhere I went with an alien accent was dangerous. When I turned up at an ironworks that I’d travelled hundreds of miles to and twelve Maltese guys blocked me at the gate, told me there was no work there .. . and I wanted to see the manager or foreman and have him tell me there was no work there … I needed to be able to fight - and fight well, I’ll tell you!
Another thing was that by then, I’d started to do some security work in pubs or clubs. Whenever I went to a town and got a day Job, I’d see if there was any work to do looking after places at night and I’d take that as well, so that I could bank one set of wages. In that way. I had a higher standard of life and could afford more things than people who just had one job.
FAI-Exactly when did you first start using your martial arts to ‘flatten’ people in clubs?
GARY-What .. . that’s a bit strong isn’t it, ‘digger’?
FAI-Perhaps … let me rephrase the question - when did you first start moderating people’s behaviour in clubs?
GARY-That would have been about 1963/64. I started with Bob Jones - who today has a large security firm and a big karate organisation in Australia, also a chap called Bill Bowling. I was in a dojo there with these two and I was asked to help out in a situation that had occurred. A group of dance halls in Melbourne had had an outbreak of severe trouble and we were able to put an end to that problem.
FAI-When and why did you go to Japan?
GARY-April, 1968 from Sydney by ship - I was 25 years old then and ‘why’ was to continue my martial arts study. I knew that there was an awful lot for me in karate but I wanted to learn it from the best people, ’cause karate done poorly isn’t worth a pinch of shit. I’d had a few fights with up-and-coming karate fellows in clubs. Now they could kick fast - I’ll give them that, and with me being big, that was the first thing they’d try and get me with. But I’d get inside their legs by charging them, take them down and once they were off their feet . .. they were mine!
Now the Goju system of karate attracted me because it preached super-mobility, lots of footwork and lots of twisting the torso to get away from the blows, while staying in close proximity to the attacker, so you could sweep him or whatever. So I enrolled in Mr. Yamaguchi’s dojo and I was immediately impressed by a Mr. Yamamoto, who was one of the top boys there. He could really put the kicks in properly
- you know, I’ve always thought that a good kicker was more dangerous than a good puncher. A Mr. Takahashi was another great fighter there who could really do the business!
FAI-Were you impressed with many of the Japanese karateka as men whom - to use your terminology -you didn’t think you could ‘cop for’?
GARY-Oh yes, there was no shortage of really good, hard, fast fighters around in the various dojo . . . definitely. I’ll tell you what. . .! did get some good ‘treatment’ there
- more than I ever would have believed I could take. You see, most people teaching in a Western society were teaching for money, which meant that they took it really easy on students, because they didn’t want to bang them around and lose their custom. But in Japan it was different -particularly in the universities, where I would often go to train. The first thing they would do there was try to ‘work it’ to the big gaijin (foreigner).
I did take a lot of ’stick’ at those places… but it was good, because the more you learn to cope with that, the more competent you get. When you turned up at a strange dojo, me senior students would usually go out of their way to try and do you in. Very often. Brian Waites (see ‘Fighting Arts’ vol. 3 No. 2 for this senior karateka’s story. Editor) and myself, plus other people who I used to get around with in Japan, were injured consistently. I’ve had black eyes on top
of black eyes -� I have been served up a severe black eye on the Monday night and then I’ve got the same dose in the same eye on the Thursday night - which meant that I wasnt looking after my eye too well!
I did eventually get sick of the constant hammering and continual injuries that I got at the colleges and universities there. Because of my size, I would more often than not. be put up against opponents of three times my karate ability and I was just looked upon as a big dumb foreigner to kick the Christ out of. And of course the higher I got up in the grades, the more savage the fighting tended to become. So I really got too much of what I had gone there to look for! I got sick of the militant students’ attitude of where they had been nowhere, seen nothing, done nothing, had their education subsidised by the government - lots of them had never had to work in their lives - and they thought nothing of trying to cripple you permanently in the dojo. And they worked on the basis that they - your sempai (seniors) in the ranking system - could hit you as hard as possible, as often as possible and yet if you were to use your size and strength to grab them, throw them down and then to drop your knee into them as a follow-up, to maybe rupture their bowels or spleen, they would have a shit-fit! Eventually a tot of us got fed up with this attitude and we began to stop it in the only way that you possibly could -to knock them right off their silly feet and put them out of commission.
FAI-Didn’t you try to hide the fact that you were already injured when you next went into the dojo?
GARY-Yes, of course, but you soon had that many injuries, they were impossible to conceal. I mean, I have always been a believer in that … I have had bad injuries from the night clubs and kept quiet about it - never let anyone know about it, because in my work I cannot afford to let the opposition know that I am vulnerable in any way. I had some smashed vertebrae in my back once and I was wearing a corset for support whilst guarding a door on my own. This was here in England several years ago. I had a very hard time to just move and turn around - I just had to hope that I would not get into any serious difficulty. I never told anybody about this - I travelled 20 miles away to get my corset strapped up each night so that it would not become known in the area I was working, that I was injured. Because I knew that if it did become common knowledge, or even rumoured that I could hardly move, there would be no shortage of would-be contenders.
FAI-That’s an interesting aspect of the combative mentality. How long did you stay in Japan?
GARY-I was there for just over two-and-a-half years and I did everything from teach English to waiting-on in restaurants - it was hard but then I wasn’t there to live in luxury.
A group of us formed what we called the Ikebukuro JuJitsu club - that was the name of the area - and we used to have special training ‘meets’ on the roof of one of the universities. We were all learning different things in different dojo - some of us were doing Goju Karate, Shorinji Kempo, Judo, Shotokan, Kyokushinkai, Aikido, etc., and we would all exchange and pool our knowledge. Then we’d practice it all against each other.
People sometimes question the relatively short time, just a couple of years - sometimes even only one year - that foreigners train in Japan. But in my case and even more so with some of the other people I mentioned, you have to bear in mind that you trained almost every day. Some days you would go into the dojo at 1 o’clock in the afternoon and not leave until 10.30 p.m. Sometimes you’d even sleep there and get right back into it, first thing in the morning. Apart from your little jobs of teaching English and whatever, there’s virtually nothing else to do but train. After you have paid your monthly dojo fees, and bought food, you usually haven’t got much money to go anywhere else except the dojo.
I had some good friends amongst the foreigners who were there at that time, people like Brian Fitkin, Steve Peck, John Robertson -he’s still there actually, got his yondan in Judo, Brian Waites, Ray Edier, Steve Morris . . .
FAI-You were always in trouble with Morris, weren’t you?
GARY-Correct. . . whilst I was in Mr. Yamaguchi’s dojo, Steve Morris was the senior and he was put in charge of the foreigners at the Goju-Kai. Now I liked him a lot and all that, but I would go off to the pub sometimes at the slightest provocation to drown my sorrows . . . and I also slept too long for his liking, he did not like that sort of behaviour at all. Now Morris was a fanatical person at training - he was very physically strong and also very strict in his attitude because of the way in which he had been brought up. This, plus the fact that he was living on a minus budget, would result in him going nearly berserk at us, and me in particular, if we did not do as he told us. He trained daily - day in, day out - I mean he never missed, ever, and I’m afraid I did develop a habit of doing a disappearing act sometimes. Now, to him, not showing up for training was like going A.W.O.L. in the bloody army. My rather flippant attitude at times used to drive dear Steve to bloodshed - mine. But we were different, you see - he was a really gung-ho rigid trainer and very respectful of the traditions, etc. Now I didn’t really believe anybody was better than me, - of whatever nationality - until they could knock me on my behind and show their superiority. Remember, I’d been doing this stuff for real, for 4 years before I ever set foot in Japan.
FAI-What else did you see and do in Japan?
GARY-Well, I visited Okinawa and trained at various dojo there. The Okinawans did impress me, not only with their karate and their ability with weapons but with their helpful, friendly attitude to students - foreign students included.
The Shorinji Kempo people are very good - it’s a fast, flowing style, lots of joint twisting, throws, lots of two-man drills. I was also impressed by the linear systems of the J.K.A. (Japan Karate Association) and the Wado-Ryu - dynamic, driving, hard. One of the most spectacular people that I related to in Japan was the J.K.A.’s Yano - whom everybody nicknamed ‘The Animal’. I’ve read about him several times recently in your magazine. He was built on the same lines as me, you see, and Jesus . . . could he perform!
Then there was the Kickboxing… my friend, Ray Edier, was a really good, strong, able fighter from the U.S.A. He took up kickboxing and became the middleweight champion of Japan. I also trained a little at one of the kickboxing gyms in Tokyo - not much, because I couldn’t afford it, but I’d do the next best thing - I’d watch the training and then practice it on my own, until I could add it to my repertoire. I’ll tell you something that really, really impressed me during my time in Japan . .. I’ve told you how good Ray Edier was and he really was, but, I saw this That kickboxer just annihilate him in a big challenge match. It was a Japan vs. Thailand match and Ray, of course, represented Japan in his division. Well, he was doing O.K. until this fellow - he was tall for a Thai, close to 6 ft. and very lean, but he polished Ray off with no trouble at all. He hit him with a perfect shot - a Thai-style� mawashi geri(roundhouse kick) in the head. He took the full shin in his temple and it effectively retired him from kickboxing . . . at the time, it looked like it had killed him! I thought to myself, ‘Yes, you’ll do for me, mate . . . that gent with that kick, would see you right off dear Gareth’ - I thought he was bloody marvellous.
FAI-You also did a lot of training under Master Higaonna �the famous Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate teacher, didn’t you?
GARY-Yes�. actually at the time I met him, I had had so much karate over that 20-month period in Japan, I was ready to pack my bags and leave. I stayed on there just so that I could train with him. He had a really nice, genuine nature and so did all the people in his dojo. Mr. Higaonna is an Okinawan, you see, and they have a different mental outlook to the Japanese. He was, and is, a perfect gentleman, a bloody marvellous karate person and it was a pleasure to be taught by him.� His classes were hard with lots of exercises to strengthen the body, lots of makiwara (striking board) to strengthen the mind and good effective karate but he did not allow his students to use you as target practice.
FAI-He is a very practical teacher, isn’t he?
GARY-Oh yes. he’s that practical he fractured my skull and caved-in one of my nasal passages!
FAI-Deliberately?
GARY-We!!, his technique was deliberate, yes, but knowing him, I�m sure the amount of damage he did me was not intentional. What happened was that. . . well I deserved it actually. I’d taken a liberty, I touched him during a kumite (sparring) practice, with an open-hand technique to the groin - twice. I got away with it the first time and I should have left it at that, but I was that pleased with myself that I did it again … and he did a really excellent Mae-Tobi hiza-geri Qumping front knee-kick) into my head. And I never again bothered trying to tap ‘The Boss’ in the groin - it cured me completely.
FAI-Did that finally stop you? … You were always looking for people who could do that.
GARY-Well. it didn’t knock me out … the whole dojo stopped at the sound of the air coming out of my sinuses - one of them just collapsed. I just stood there - astounded I guess � with blood coming out of my ears and nose like a beauty. They took me and sat me down in the changing room.
FAI-So you finally met someone who stiffened you
GARY-He didn�t actually �stiffen� me��.
FAI-What I�m getting at is � did you fancy a return match with him?
GARYNo. I did not!�.No thank you…I mean, really it was wonderful�look at the size of him, he�s only up to here on me (Mr. Spiers indicated his own navel � a slight exaggeration but anyway, Higaonna Sensei is quite short) and he did �fix me up�.� He actually did remark later about the fact that I had not fell over and �died� � that I still had the ability to stand there.
FAI-So apart from Higaonna Sensei�s training you became quite disillusioned with Japanese karate?
GARY-Oh no � no, far from it.� I considered my stay in Japan to be the most important part of my life.� My experiences in Japan really woke my ideas up about life � having to go to the dojo continually every night where I knew that I was going to get bashed good and proper, taught me a great deal about the martial arts. I would say that that period was invaluable in the building of my spirit.� For whilst the consistent hammering can’t help but sicken you, it is good for your mind, because it exposes you to a far higher level of physical and mental stress than you would ever get in a Western dojo. I think you will learn more actual technique in a Western dojo but not more spirit.
It’s just that . . . well. I have never in my life, done what seems to be a Japanese habit of knocking bits off the junior grades - I consider that a liberty. I would not. as ayondan kick a shodan (1st degree black belt) all over the place. The Japanese mentality makes no allowances whatsoever - if you can’t do it, they just force you anyway.
FAI-But doesn’t that create strong fighters?
GARY-I personally believe it creates a weakness … in the society of today, in that it develops an attitude that is really not conducive to civilized behaviour. If I decided to adopt that attitude to my life, I would not work - I’d just take anything I wanted off anybody that couldn’t stop me! There are people like that of course - and I do know what they need, in huge quantities . . . and it’s something that I can dispense really well. It’s called pain.
I’ll give you another example of the karate attitude that was prevalent in Japan when I was there - it may very well have changed now - this was over 15 years ago. I used to go to one dojo - which belonged to a well-known rokudan (6th degree) in the Goju system - he was rumoured to have lost a testicle in the collegiate karate fights when he was a young ‘buck’. Now he would actually encourage his yondans and godans (5th degrees), in Japanese of course - but after a while you learn to speak the language quite fluently -to really take a brutal, merciless shot at you. Now I had the physical size, the capacity and the attitude to cope with this to a large extent. I was brought up on very hard manual work and used to ‘getting into it’ with ail sorts of assorted idiots back home in the clubs I worked in. This was towards the end of my stay there and during the time when I was bashing them back. But the other foreigners had a lot less ability to handle this type of punishment and this instructor, through his senior students, used to put them through the ‘meat grinder’. And I thought it was an appalling liberty. But I understand that from the dawn of karate, this has been the Japanese way, whereas the Okinawan attitude is that you are there to be taught lots of things before they expose you to any real physical danger in the kumite.
Here’s another one for you I was with Mr. Higaonna this particular day and he introduced me to the then captain of the Takushoku University Karate Club. We bowed and then shook hands politely and as soon as he had hold of my hand, he kicked me straight in the groin . . .
FAI-What, Just like that (laughter) . . .?
GARY-Oh yes, right away . . . “How do you do”. . . whack, ‘hold that one Spiers, you’re a man of property now - there are two acres.’ You see, Mr. Higaonna had told the captain I was practicing karate and he wanted to see if I was what they termed a ‘weak Westerner’ - he wanted to see what my reaction was.
FAI- What was it?
GARY-I don’t consciously remember doing it but I had my foot in his balls before he could return his kicking foot to the ground. Both our kicks were pulled of course but they both landed on target. . . and after that, we got on real well. But that’s the Japanese, you see . . .
FAI-You sound slightly anti-Japanese because of that attitude they have?
GARY-No, I’m not anti-Japanese. They are Just like that - they are different to us. It’s the same mentality that made Japan such a tough and universally-feared military power, until Hiroshima and Nagasaki cured them. That was a terrible thing, I know, but . . they . . would . . never . . have stopped .. otherwise. They are only a small nation of physically small people, most of them anyway - but they are super-tough ” and that’s a historical fact. I believe the Japanese spirit - their code of Bushido to be the strongest of its kind in the world.
FAI-Would you then recommend a karate instructor going to Japan to improve his karate?
GARY-Yes, or else find some other realistic, true-to-life way of experiencing combat before you put up a sign advertising that you teach karate as a fighting art
FAI-Well, I don�t think it�s very practical to say that before becoming an instructor, you have to either go to Japan, or else work on a night-club door to get the sort of experience that you have.
GARY-Well, let�s put it this way � would you go to a dentist and pay money to have your teeth taken out by a fellow who had never done it before � he�d only half or even quarter practiced it?� You have to understand � whether you are in agreement or not, - that I do not, have never and probably never will, regard karate as a sport.� My personal idea of sport is having two women to splash around with in a big bath � do you know what I mean?� I have always participated in karate as a method of physical combat.
FAI-But shortly after you first arrived here in Great Britain, you competed as a member of the national squad and team.
GARY-Yes, and I enjoyed it,� but I enjoyed the travel and the meeting of people more so than the actual competition.� Now I�m not against sports karate per-se, I fought in several tournaments and matches in Japan.� It tests your judgement, timing, speed, etc. � it�s fine for them, but not for me � that�s all I�m saying.� O.K. � I can see you�re still unhappy, I�ll soften up a bit � for the vast majority of people, sport karate is an excellent aspect.� It encourages them to participate, it takes up a good period of their life � becomes a hobby or interest, it improves them physically, they learn discipline, control of their bodies�but it does not equip them psychologically to fight for their lives and I have to be ready to do this every bloody night of the week!� And that�s it!
FAI-You have agreed to describe some of your experiences�actual fights that you have been involved in over the years.
GARY-Yes I will but you must edit out or change any names and places that might lead to any future embarrassment for me and you know what I mean by that. I won�t be too �wrapped� (happy) if I get landed with some police or civil action as a result of this magazine story.
FAI-It�s a deal.
GARY-O.K�.where to start?�These will not be in chronological order you know � there has been that many of them - You know what it’s like yourself, you’ll go two weeks with nothing to do - just the usual drunks and ‘domestics’ (quarrels between couples - man and wife etc.) to split up and then you can have three major incidents in the one night. The place that I look after now for example, it’s Been nice and quiet recently - just some threats from assorted idiots whom I refused admittance to - but then just the day before yesterday, i had to ‘get into it’ with three ….. (noun) - a father and two sons who decided to kick the shit out of the disc jockey, because he wouldn’t play a record for them. Now the reason for it is of no interest to me - I just added that for your readers who might not be able to comprehend some of the behaviour of a particular section of the community that I come into contact with.
FAI-Doesn’t alcohol or rather the over-consumption of alcohol in pubs and clubs have a lot to do with the violence that you are involved with?
GARY-Yes, booze does promote that kind of foolishness but there are a lot of people around who don’t need any outside factor or excuse to make them degenerate into violence . . . its just them, they enjoy it… until they meet someone like me. That’s just you doing your ‘editor bit’ - asking that question - because I know you think like me on this subject. Let me take it further for you: if nice people didn’t go to pubs and clubs then they wouldn’t get butted, punched, kicked, glassed or stabbed would they? The reality is that people need to have places of entertainment to go to, to relieve the frustrations of society. Day-to-day living would drive them mad if they couldn’t go somewhere to ‘unwind’. It’s just an unfortunate fact that they need protection against the mindless element but then that’s what keeps me employed.
The mentality of these ‘types’ is unbelievable … I have had a fight at 11 a.m. in the bloody morning and then another one in the middle of the night, at 3 a.m. As part of my duties, I ‘oversee’ an amusement arcade at a popular seaside resort and just before lunch one day, I’m called to an idiot who is kicking this bingo-type machine to pieces - he’d lost 10p in it. I offered to open the machine and give him his 10p back … no, not interested - he’d ‘open the machine himself, with his feet, and I’d better ” . . . . off!” He saw fit to reach out toward me as he was saying this, so he ended up missing his lunch,-because I’m sure he wouldn’t have felt much like eating, after the mae-geri (front kick) I put into his guts . . . and he also lost his 10p, plus other assorted coins that fell out of his pockets as he bounced off the machine behind him. Fifteen hours later, I had a more serious problem with a fellow who came to the nightclub ‘gunning’ for me with an iron bar … and that was all because I would not allow him to come in the place at 7 p.m. Now I hadn’t touched him at all but he decided, in his wisdom, over the next six hours, that it was worth coming back for me. And I found out later, when the police were making enquiries as to how he had ended up in hospital. that this was a man with three kids - how would you go with morons like that bringing up children?
I had a Rugby captain follow me on to an Indian restaurant after I’d locked up the club for the night and gone for my supper. I did give him some ’stick’ (punishment) I’ll tell you - I dropped my knee into his kidneys several times -because he deliberately came looking for me and had gone to the trouble of finding out where I ate after work. He stormed in to the restaurant - a real big guy - and shouted “Right, who is the . . . who . . . my mates!” He must have really fancied his chances to come on his own, to settle up with someone who had just polished off two of his team mates, at the club during a disturbance. The little Indian waiters nearly had a fit - they thought their place was going to end up in splinters but we went outside. It didn’t last long and I talked to him during it - I was never in any trouble at all but he was, right from the word ‘Go’. I told him, in between bashing him, that he should stick to his rugby . . . because he wasn’t too good at this stuff!
FAI-Before we get too deeply into the incidents you have been involved with over here, could we back track a little and talk about some of the ‘battles’ you had in Australia? … I know some of them were quite severe
GARY-Correct… I suppose we could start with this, (Mr. Spiers traced with his finger, a faded but still noticeable eight inch scar that runs through the centre of his face) which I got at a party when I was around 21/22 years old. An Italian put a knife in my face. It was a big party and whilst everyone was drinking, up until this point, there had been no trouble whatsoever. I was there with a group of my friends and there was a large group of Italians there as well. It started with one word, or rather the mis-interpretation of a word and by the end of the fight, 12 of us had been stabbed - one of my friends was in fact stabbed 22 times in the back and wound up on a kidney machine! The word in the Maori language for ‘mate’ apparently translates into Corsican as ‘homosexual’ and that’s what it was over. We were told later by witnesses and police that we were very successful in not being killed by these Italians, who were armed right at the onset with blades. They waited for us in the car park and ambushed us, Christ-knows how many of them there were … but there was heaps more than us. I was the first to get it. Because I was the largest in our group, I was instantly stabbed to get me out of the way. One minute I was walking along, both of my arms occupied in carrying a large case of beer and the next thing was I got slashed from under my right eye, right down through my nose - it sliced one nostril in half - through my lips to my jaw. It was only a small stiletto but you can see how much damage it done . . .
FAI-Did you go down!
GARY-No, I didn’t. My face was literally cut in half and as I was breathing out, there was so much blood spraying out in a mist through the hole in my nose, that I couldn’t see anything in front of me. I still got right into him! I cannot truthfully say what the sequence of events was - I must have been in a state of shock - but I’m told that I locked his arm up, which prevented him from sticking me with the knife again, turned him over (threw him down Editor) and then smashed his spine. He managed to crawl under a parked car outside the premises - otherwise I might well have killed him on the spot. I apparently damaged 13 of his vertebrae and nine months later, when the case came up in court, he turned up there still in a wheelchair . . . which I thought was marvellous! I count myself very fortunate that I was training 4 or 5 days a week in karate and wrestling … I believe that this saved my life at that time and many times since then.
Another time I was stabbed in the groin with a broken bottle. That was back in New Zealand at a Maori community centre that I used to like going to - always a lot of Samoans and Fijians there. I’d helped a doorman put a fellow out -he’d been having great difficulty with this large fellow after an argument about sport. It’s like here in England, where if you go to a football match wearing a different coloured scarf to somebody else, you are quite likely to find yourself in some physical difficulty. Anyway this fellow’s girl friend ran out into the street, found a milk bottle on a doorstep, ‘prepared’ it by smashing the neck end off it and after hiding it until an opportune moment, she stuck it between my legs
FAI-Is this the reason - if I’m not being too personal -for your less than average proportions . . .?
GARY-Expletive! Don’t go putting stuff like that in the magazine . . . Jesus, I’m serious now. You won’t, will you ‘digger’ (mate)?
FAI-No, of course not - just a private joke . . .
GARY-Actually it was right under the balls … so I guess I was lucky - if you can call that being lucky.
FAI-What did you do then?
GARY-I did the appropriate thing - I passed out and woke up in hospital.
I had another very serious fight when I worked on a night club in Australia - I won’t tell you which one because I believe its still there now. It was a really nice place and I refused admission to these two fellows who were, in my opinion, too drunk to come in. I was the head-doorman at this place and I was very courteous to them. They claimed to be military this and military that etc . . . so after some awkwardness - they were not touched at all - they went away. That was that … I thought. At around 2.30 a.m. in the morning, I finished work and went to have a meal in a restaurant - a Greek place - before I went home. In walks these two characters, changed from their ‘ciwies* into their full military kit, including, of course, their boots. They came straight to my table - I was half-ways through my steak -and they started the verbals about my attitude to soldiers. I hadn’t been hard to ‘track’, because a lot of night club people ended up eating at this place after work.
So we got into a fight because one of them put it straight on me at the table . . .
FAI-. . . Put it on you?
GARY-Yes, he hit me a good right-hander in the face whilst I was still sitting down. So I ’shot’ the table at his friend and immediately grabbed the leg of the one who had punched me and took him down to the floor, with me on top of him. Well as soon as we touched the floor, I had him ‘pinned’ by my bodyweight and was just getting into seeing how he liked having his face punched in, when he reached up, grabbed me by the lapels and pulled me right down, close to his face. His friend by this time had got out from under the table and proceeded to use my head, which his partner was holding nicely in place, like a bloody football!
FAI-So they weren’t beginners at this sort of thing? … they could fight.
GARY-Well I certainly could and they were doing quite well with me up until then, wouldn’t you say? ^low I don’t know if I actually lost consciousness but the thought did occur to me that these …… were going to kill me. After the first few kicks from those big army boots, I was bleeding from the nose, the mouth, the ears - I was being given a real good ‘working over’ I didn’t think of doing it… it just came natural I suppose … but the one who was on the bottom, holding my head in place, lost his left ear.
FAI- What do you mean ‘He lost his left ear’ . . . what happened to it?
GARY-Well . . . I bit� it off …
FAI-What, right off?
GARY-That’s right but it couldn’t be found when they looked for it later.
FAI-Surely you didn’t swallow it?
GARY-I don’t know . . . what I do know is that I was in a lot of pain and facing more where that came from. There was heaps of blood - all mine up until that point in the proceedings . . . his friend, the ‘footballer’ had kicked me at least once full in the eye, so that was closed up and I could only see half of what happened next. I was then hit over the head with a stool, which split my head open -again it did not have the desired effect of polishing me off and I got up off the floor. ‘One ear’ had let go of me at this point and the other one decided it was time for him to leave … I chased him across the restaurant and he missed the bannister at the top of the stairs - we were on the second floor - and he sailed right out of the window. I was later accused of throwing him through the window but I did not recall that at all. The incident was savage … it was instantaneous. There was possibly thirty people in the place screaming their heads off but nobody was inclined to help me - as nobody is inclined to help anybody in these type of incidents, unless they are friends or family. Even then, in such circumstances, sometimes even your friends hesitate sufficiently long enough to get you killed.
FAI-What happened to the guy who had lost his ear?
GARY-I haven’t the faintest idea - nor am I at all inclined to care … -I suppose if he wore glasses, he’d have to use sellotape on one side of his head to keep them on!
FAI-Aren’t you dramatising things slightly when you liken these night club fights to life or death* situations?’
GARY-No, I don’t believe I’am. A number of people - both doorman and customers are actually killed in nightclubs, bars and pubs each year, or else they die later from injuries received at such: places. A great many more are left for dead and it’s through no fault of the people who attack them, that Ihey^survive. t have been personally involved in many very nasty situations in which I and other people could very easily have’ been ^finished off’. At one particular ‘fun place’ here in Liverpool”, there was that many incidents of people being ‘glassed over a two to three year period - very few even made it into the *Echo’ (the local evening newspaper. Editor that the police -made serious attempts to close the place down. They were unsuccessful only because of the size and power of the organisation that the place belongs to. I actually was working in a different venue at that time but it was only a sub-division.�� both places were owned by the same people. So I was often called upon to ‘perform’ there and you would not believe, until you saw it, the amount of blood that comes out of someone with their jugular vein cut open, On two occasions that I know of - and I’m sure there were other similar occurances before I worked there and since I left - people had their throats cut by beer glasses that were thrust at their faces and then when they pulled back, it got them in the necks instead.
There was a guy kicked to death outside one nightclub - not one that I was looking after - at a seaside resort where I was employed. Now it was in the newspaper of course -’the fact that he had been the victim of a-gang attack and been kicked to death etc . . . but they glossed over the actual details by describing them as “frightful injuries”. I’d certainly call them that all right … his head was kicked off and I mean “off” - I was told by a reliable source that when they tried to pick the body up, his head came off at the neck!
Now 1 was the security adviser for a major entertainment company in a particular seaside resort for two and a half� years and during that time I was involved in some of the most dangerous situations 1 have ever been in. Vast amounts of people - several thousand a night on weekends - would use this place and you will always get a percentage of them that are there for nothing but trouble. There would be at the most, ten of us working there and we would have to block, sometimes up to five coachloads of people from the one suburb of a city or from the one village, from coming in. They would have been drinking all day and early evening and would, by the time they showed up, be in no fit state or attitude to be admitted to the premises that I was looking after. Sometimes they would have been crafty and tricked me by drifting in, in twos and threes until there v^/as a sizeable contingent inside. Then as soon as they started performing, we would have to go in and get them out before they wrecked not only the place but some of the decent customers along with it. Now no matter how good you are, when -you have to approach a large partisan group of people
- drunk; beligerant; nasty; possibly armed and not caring how much damage they do to people because they are from out-of-town and once they are back on their coaches, that’s it - they have disappeared - you have got a really bad Job on your hands. There was one incident - the second year I was up there - when a doorman friend of mine had an axe put in his back by just such a team. Now what in the name of Christ are you doing, getting on a coach for a day out at the beach, with an axe?
Now a lot of people will just say “Well, that’s what the job is - you do it and you take those chances . . .” That’s fine but the penalties that the courts dish out to people who do this type of shit - who take up weapons and deliberately go out to damage citizens going about their lawful duties
- is ludicrous. I do it right then and there on the spot . . . and I’ll tell you something - it ‘cures’ them immediately. I don’t know about the long term but it certainly puts an end to their violence at that point in time.
FAI-Have you had many other people use, or try to use weapons on you since those incidents you have just recounted?
GARY-Oh yes, I’ve been stabbed three or four times - I can’t remember now - since I have been in this country.
FAI-How do you teach your karate students to react to people who use weapons against them . . . what sort of a response do you deem adequate?
GARY-Do you want me to tell you the truth now or something like … I advocate trying to disarm them without causing them undue damage?
FAI-The truth of course . . .
GARY-Right… for anyone who attempts to use any sort of a weapon on me - particularly a blade, which I have a thing about - I try, to the very best of my ability to cause them as much damage as I possibly can. It’s like I have often told people who have threatened me - on the telephone or through messengers or from a distance - with what they are going to use on me. I tell them “You’d better like the sight of blood and lots of it, because whatever you pull on me or manage to cut me with is going to end up sticking in, out, or up you!” And that’s it! As long as they are prepared for that… but you know, ninety-nine-point-nine percent of them aren’t. After having gone to the trouble of purchasing a suitable knife or razor, or chisel - I have had would-be carpenters pull sharpened chisels and files on me - and being unable to put me away with it… they then want to ‘call It a day,’ squawking and crying that they are sorry and if I’ll just not hurt them, they will never do it again! I have seen them wet themselves with fear, once the tables are turned - yes, unbelievable isn’t it - an instant change of heart. Now I suppose some people might expect me to just put a nice come-along hold or restraining lock on them at this point… the day I am inclined to be merciful to some . . . who has just tried to open me up like a melon, is the day I stop doing this kind of work and join the church or something. And I’ll tell you another thing - I’m not in the
forgiving business either. If I could meet up with my friend from twenty-odd years ago who presented me with this nice memento (pointing to his facial scar), I’d have some more business with him right away!
As for training specific responses … I never have a preconceived idea of what I’m going to do in any given situation. You see in the time it takes to close in on an incident - an on-going fight or one just about to commence, the participants have changed their positions. So what were possible targets for particular techniques - be it groins, knees to kick, legs to sweep or arms to bar etc. - at say 5 yards are no longer accessible. Also, by the time it takes me to get across a crowded dance floor or the lounge of a hotel, one or more of my imminent opponents may have produced a weapon from a pocket or even ‘manufactured’ one - i.e. pulled the leg off a table, broken a bottle, picked up an ashtray or whatever.
I have not been conscious, for several years now, of making the decision to ‘Go’. I used to deliberate - shall I . . . what if… he’s screaming and swearing at me … is it too soon? . . . that sort of thing but nowadays it just happens naturally. I do my best to constantly condition my mind to react properly. And this ability has enabled me to beat younger, fitter people who are constantly training.
You must always go deliberately to finish an incident -once you have realized that it is going to become physical - as quickly as possible, because you have no knowledge of who else will become involved. To give yourself the best possible chance of winning in a street situation, you must develop the ability - both physically and mentally, to explode
�An instructor must instil the attitude… “My life is in Jeopardy - I must finish this man (or men) here and now!”…. to ’switch on’ instantly. It’s got to become as natural, in your psyche, as changing gears or applying the brake in a motor vehicle - you have to suddenly shift into overdrive.
Any martial arts person who is going to put himself ‘on the line’, must be able to switch on from a state of nothing to one hundred per cent ‘Go’ instantly. An instructor must instil the attitude “My life is in jeopardy here -. / must finish this man (or men) here and now!”
As for actual techniques … well I’d say that over the years I have put people out of commission with practically every martial arts blow known to man. At one place I was working, shortly after first coming to Liverpool, I even used an Ushiro kubi-tsuki
FAI-What’s that?
�GARY- A rear head butt - the Japanese term it a head punch - you were there actually, don’t you remember when that fellow grabbed hold of me from the back?
FAI-Yes I do remember, it was just the term that I was unfamiliar with.
GARY-Anyway that worked spectacularly - the front of his face looked as flat as a pancake afterwards. In fact I just love people to grab me, you know - I’m right into that. It’s rather a speciality of mine. I think it’s hilarious whenever some one lays hands on me - I have even had a few try to put holds on me. It’s often happened in incidents that have escalated into brawls, with a lot of people packed in close together, like on a dance floor of a discotheque. As soon as someone tries to grapple with me, I think to myself “That will do me, my dear - you’re about to be really, really sorry you left the house this evening!”
FAI-Gary … let me ask you at this point, just how far you go … I want you to be truthful again here. By now the people reading this story will be aware that you do not cause these altercations … but you are a huge man with a vast amount of martial arts training and combative experience … how hard do you actually hit these people? I mean, on two occasions I have really thought you had killed your opponents - one was that ‘monster’ black guy, the one from the American base
GARY-Yes … that was a ‘beauty’ wasn’t it? I did catch him with a couple of really good shots … he was halfway ‘out of the game’ from the Yoko I gave him (yoko geri or side kick. Editor) in the ribs and then he turned right into that right cross (boxing punch) and that was that. . .period. Whack! I got him right in the temple with this here (Mr. Spiers tapped the oversized second knuckle on his right hand - a result of strenuous toughening on the karate makiwara. Editor.)
FAI-Do you still hit people as hard as that today?
GARY-Well it all depends on the situation . . . what I’m saying is, my mind is tuned to react accordingly to whatever they decide to do … for example I always watch very closely for the appearance of weapons and I have already told you I have no intention whatsoever of being crippled or killed by some pathetic moron..that’s how I feel about weapon-users. You see I do not start violent confrontations Terry, but I do stop them - real quick. I have no intention whatsoever of being crippled or killed by some pathetic moron who has decided that I will look better with a knife in me or with an iron bar over my head. If somebody is going to have to put in some hospital time, then it’s going to be them - not me. So I can summarise that for you . . . if we now have a fight in which I have less than a few seconds to evaluate the potential danger, then I hit man, woman and dog with the same level of every degree of physical power that I can generate - because if I don’t put my opponent away immediately, I have no way of knowing how many others are going to join in on the attack.
FAI-Are you not scared that someday you will kill somebody?
GARY-I have thought about it … what can I do? I have never initiated an attack - the options are always there for the people who start it. Let’s put it this way, I certainly have no wish to kill anybody but I’d rather be the accused at someones murder trial than be the main star!
FAI-Have you ever hit somebody really hard with what you considered a ‘good shot’ and it hasn’t had the desired effect?
GARY-Yes, I did that years ago and the first time it happened I was actually physically shocked. I hit an Irish immigrant fellow with, what I thought was a real good right hand punch on the side of his jaw … the timing was right, so was the distance and so was the placement. I hit him as hard as I possibly could and it didn’t even phase him … his head moved but that was the full extent of it and he promptly hit me back. And I was astounded. Prior to that, I had never had anyone take such a beautiful shot from me and just shrug it off.
FAI-And then what. . . what was the eventual outcome of that dispute?
GARY-I beat him in the finish because I took his leg from under him and dropped on his groin with my knee.
FAI-Did that stop him?
GARY-It didn’t knock him out but he couldn’t get up. So I dragged him by the ankles down the stairs of the place I was working in and dumped him in the street, still doubled up and gargling. I did learn from that though, and since then, I do follow up now with a second and if I have the time and somebody else doesn’t need some attention - a third blow.
FAI-You do enjoy it don’t you? . . . It’s very obvious to me, not only from your enthusiasm in re-living these fights - but also by the fact that you have stuck at this line of work for so long now, that you get a certain pleasure out of putting people ‘out of commission’ as you put it. Can you deny that?
GARY- No. I couldn’t say that I don’t enjoy it … because I have spent my whole life in gymnasiums training for just this type of situation. If I had spent the same amount of time working on motor vehicles - the engineering, performance and driving side - then I’m sure I’d really enjoy the handling and racing of them. And it’s the same with me and fighting I suppose … if you can follow my drift. When you see the opponent grab the bottle off the bar or reach into their pocket or shift their bodyweight to throw a kick … then I feel more comfortable in that situation than in 90�/o of other situations that I live in, day-to-day.
FAI-I’d like you to recall some more ‘incidents’ . . . fights that you have been in, during your many years spent ‘working the clubs’ here in Northern England.
GARY-All right, but here particularly I want you to change both the locality and the names of the people involved. I’ll tell you all the details of who, how, where and what happened on the understanding that I will be suitably ‘covered’ against any resulting flak - in other words, should any authorities become interested in me - you made the whole story up…?
FAI-Who is to say that I didn’t?
GARY-Fair enough. We can start with one that I was particularly pleased with at the time. In fact, come to think of it I’m still very happy about that performance. Remember I told you some years ago about the team from Scotland I got ‘into’ it with, in that club in Southport?
FAI-Was that the boxers … the time you had two really bad black eyes?
GARY-Yes that was it but I’ll tell you what. . . (laughter)… that was nothing compared to the state that some of them finished up in! As to them being boxers, well, that 1 can’t vouch for … but they were all ‘handy’ - a few of them were big strong lads and they could certainly ‘dig’ - they gave me some really sound smacks in the face and back of the head.
As it turned out, this particular team had been demanding (and getting) a certain amount of protection money from a few local establishments. Now I happened to be part of a wedding party at one of these establishments - I’d taken a night off from the club I was working at the time to celebrate a friend’s ‘demise’ (his wedding. Editor.). Now at that time I had not heard of these Scots, nor was I aware that the place was being ‘minded’ Anyway, at one point in the evening some drinks were taken from one of these fellows’ table - by mistake I’m sure, because the people I was with were not the type to do that. Well an altercation started and several members of the wedding party � who were not fighters by the way - were attacked and injured. including the bride, who was knocked out. So of course I became involved. We had a very severe fight which got that ‘busy’ as it went on, that during the worst part, I only remember doing two or three distinct things - I used Hiza-geri (knee kicks) several times and various Empi-uchi (elbow strikes).
FAI-How many of them were there?
GARY-I don’t know exactly. I was told later that there were at least seven of them but there might only have been five - 1 didn’t have time to actually count them. 1 was too occupied blocking and covering up because I was in danger of being ‘put away’ - they were all a bit useful. Every time I saw a vulnerable point - a throat … an eye … a joint or a groin - i hit it. I was not put on the ground at any time. There was a lot of blood from a cut over my eye but that’s all. I was hit in the groin but I’d taken lots of that during my time in Japan, doing Goju-kai karate. That was a favourite pastime of some of my little ‘yellow friends’ - kicking each other, but particularly big foreigners, in the balls with Kin and Kogan gen (groin kicks)…. so that didn’t bother me much. All the other shots they had got into me left marks but no impression, if you know what I mean. If I have to � although it’s not one of my favourite pastimes - I can take a lot of ’stick’ (punishment. Editor) and still perform.
One of them gave me a pretty good kick in the back -it missed the kidneys though, which was fortunate for me and very unfortunate for them. As it went on they must have been getting more and more disheartened and I was getting more and more into it! So I got out of that fight without any severe injury as a penalty whereas they all went to the hospital. Some of them just needed patching up but some of them, I’m very pleased to report, had to be booked in for several days’ stay in the place. And one of them - who I later was given to understand was the ‘main attraction’ -the biggest ‘hard-case’ of the crew. he had to have an extended ‘rest’ and extensive treatment. I do remember him because it was right at the end - it was all over actually because there were none of them standing. I was just darting into the washroom to swill off - because I was covered in ‘it’, before I left the place. I didn’t particularly want to be there
when the ‘cavalry’ (police. Editor) arrived. Just as I pushed open the door out comes this big one shouting something garbled at me and pointing to his face … I thought it was me that had gone partially deaf, from one of the punches I’d taken in the ears, and it occurred to me that he was saying something like “Try me on!” so I promptly gave him two really good shots in the head - a right hand Shotei uchi (palm-heel strike) and, as his head bounced off the door frame, I followed it with a. right-hand Empi (elbow) in the face.
Well, you’ll laugh at this - I practically wet myself when some of the staff told me about it later I’d apparently already broken his Jaw early on in the proceedings and he had been in the toilet, trying to line up his mouth and teeth. Then he’d come out, bumped into me and been trying to say “Look what you have done, you . . ./” Anyway I certainly ‘cured’ him. One of my associates was interested enough to telephone the hospital - where he was still “in residence” five days later - and they told the Interested relation’ that his condition was “still poorly” and that he was still in considerable discomfort after his operations - plural, if you don’t mind! This ‘gentleman’ and some of the rest of his crew, may well have had doubts about their future in their chosen tine of work.
FAI-Have you had other incidents like that one where you have been severely outnumbered?
GARY-Oh yes, quite a few times . . . when I was stabbed in the knee - that was a gang attack. You will probably remember that I was limping for bloody ages. There was a young chap who was attacked and very nearly killed - I do seriously believe that if I hadn’t been there he would have died -because he had a different accent! He was ridiculed, pushed around and then eventually slashed with Stanley knives . . . or ‘Stanley-ed’ as it’s popularly known in Liverpool. These weapons are used that often in the city and its surrounding areas, I think of it as the modern-day equivalent of the Japanese katana (long sword).
By the time I was brought up a flight of stairs and had got into the function room, where it was all happening, there was blood everywhere - on the floor, on tables, up one wall .. . and it was all coming out of this one kid. A team of about eight ‘heroes’ were ‘into’ him and even with those odds, at least two of them were stabbing at him and slashing him with those little razor-sharp knives. His girl friend was standing on a table screaming hysterically and everyone else had instantly vacated the area - none of the other customers and bar staff had any intention of intervening. Now I made a tactical error here and I paid for it - which is correct - if you drop your guard in a proper dojo you should get ‘whacked’ for it … and if you don’t then you are not being taught proper karate! I should have got right into them immediately - I reckon I could have polished off three or four of them before they knew what had hit them - because i was coming from their rear. But the kid was in such a state that I Just dashed through the middle and only threw and pushed them out of the way, so that I could get to him. You see, as they were stabbing at him, he had his hands up in front of his face - ’cause that was their main target - and both of his wrists had been slashed, one of them through to the bone. The blood was pumping out of him that fast that I went straight for him and grabbed his wrists - I thought if I didn’t stem the blood real quickly, he wouldn’t be with us too much longer! It did take me a few seconds to secure proper grips on him - his wrists were that slippery, plus he had lots of other cuts on his hands to down past his elbows - they were really into carving him up. Anyway no sooner had I grabbed him and began running toward the door, dragging him with me, than I became the subject of attention. I was hit by a chair first, felt a few kicks and punches and then I was stabbed in the side of the knee -a real ‘beauty’ - by someone behind me. Now this was a deliberate attempt to cripple me - you should have seen it. my leg just opened up like a mushroom - now it did not totally succeed in doing that but it did reduce my capacity, I’d say, by about 60%. I didn’t feel any pain but within 15 seconds I lost the use of that leg - it just wouldn’t work. So from then on I had to go on the defensive. I knew if I had attacked at that point in time, I would have definitely gone down. And if it hadn’t been for the intervention of two friends of mine who had followed me up the stairs, I believe I might have been killed in that place, because when they saw I couldn’t move too well they were coming on to me like a pack of dogs. As it was, the team was broken up by my friends hurling two of them down the stairs. The rest of them paused for a few seconds and that was enough for me to be able to ‘turn it around’… I had let go of the kid’s wrists - I believe someone else then took over that job -and when I started on them, they turned and ran …
FAI-Hold on Gary, you are not actually describing these fights the way I’d like you to … you’re leaving a lot to the imagination and the majority of readers have simply not had the experience of this type of situation . . . please elucidate.
GARY-Do what?
FAI-Go into more detail.
GARY-O.K. … I ’snatched’ one and dragged him in real close - I believe I had my teeth into his nose and cheek at one stage - and using him as a support I side-kicked one of them in the ribs - a real close shot, the way I have always used Yoko gen - which smashed him up against the bar . . . and then I just ‘tore’ into them and as I said, they turned around and ran for it.
FAI-Why would that many people run from you . . . ?
GARY-Because at that point I knew I had been ’stuck’ again -knifed - and I wanted to kill them . . . and they knew it -that’s why they ran!
FAI-What happened then?
GARY-They all got away, except for the one who I believe stabbed me. I’m not 100�/o positive it was him because I was stabbed from behind but he was definitely one of the two that had a Stanley knife.
FAI-What did you do to him?
GARY-Lots . . . and that’s it on that one thank you. Next .. .
FAI-I recall an incident, a couple of years back, where some people came back to a club you were working at, specifically to sort you out . . .
GARY-Well I have had a few of these over the years - they have been hugely unsuccessful to date I may add - but I know the one you mean. It was at a club on a sea-front. There was only the boss and I left there, - we were just at the door locking up at about 3 a.m. Now I never found out if it was him - my employer, me or the takings they were after. Actually all the money had been locked away in a safe but they weren’t to know that, so it may only have been an attempted robbery . . . anyway whatever it was, it was planned. There were four of them and they must have been hiding in this nearby hedge. The first we knew was when they came running across the road, complete with big fence-pickets and clubs. ‘We’ve come for you mate!” shouts one of them . . . “Good,” I said and I charged at them. Now it did become rather severe because they all had weapons - I had none . . . and they did intend to ‘do the business’ on me. I was fortunate in getting away from that one without having my head bashed in - my forearms got some real nice lumps on them though from blocking their staves. Unfortunately one of them had one of his eyes almost popped out on his cheekbone - which sounds a horrific thing if you are a normal, moral, civilized character but then civilized people do not leap out of hedges in the middle of the night and start trying to open up people’s heads with assorted clubs!
FAI-How did the other three fare?
GARY-On the first contact I blocked a stick aimed at my head and got that first one with a Mae-geri (front kick) which put him right on his arse across the pavement. One was Ashi-barai’ed (foot swept) and kakato-ed (heel stamping kick) in the groin - which finished him … one of them got his head wedged in between two phone booths. He must have thought that all of him would have fitted into that space, thereby giving him some protection, but as it happened he couldn’t get his shoulders in - which was unfortunate for the rest of his body. Sadly, one of them got away. He abandoned the enterprise completely, dropped his club -which I picked up, ‘thankyou very much,’ - and took off at a great speed along the promenade.
Now I’m not built for running - as you so often kindly point out to me - and I had no hope of catching him, although I did hit him in the back with the stick which I threw at him. This did upset me - him escaping - because I felt he should have had an equal serving along with his colleagues. I’m sure that, had it gone the other way, they would all have been very busy bashing the shit out of me.
FAI-Does it ever occur to you that you might get killed?
GARY-I have thought about it, yes. But, see … it is what I choose to do. I have done this work all my adult life. I love the martial arts … and being paid for the abilities I have gained through their practice and for the heaps of experience I have had in dealing with the scumbags of society, enables me to live solely in a combative field. Like anybody else I only have so much of a useable life, so of course you are constantly having to negotiate your wages up to a high level of payment in keeping with the dangers and demands of the job. I provide what I consider to be, a really good service and I now get more offers of work than I actually have time to do. But if it is worthwhile - by which I mean that the finances are right, then if I can’t be there all the time myself, I can usually provide competent, qualified students of mine to look after the places and I then ‘oversee’ the premises and personnel.
In one big club that I was employed they had had 72 incidents in which police had been called on to the premises in one season. I was hired to control the security and the following season they had just one such incident … and that’s a fact. So everybody was happy - except the idiots who I had disputes with . . . now they weren’t too overjoyed but who cares about them? I’m really glad they were around actually . . . they made me a lot of money!
FAI-Do you still get scared when you know ‘it’s’ about to start?
GARY-Of course. But you need that, you always ‘go’ better when your nerves are on edge . . . when there’s some fear. But I’d have to say that it doesn’t get me as much as it used to when I was younger. The older you get … how can I put it… the more interested you become in survival. Take dogs for example - perhaps it’s the same with other animals, I don’t know - the most dangerous in a group of dogs is generally the old male. He has the experience, the cunning, and his attitude is harsher. He takes life more seriously because he hasn’t got that much of it left. I take less chances now than. say, seven to ten years ago. At the slightest hint of it turning physical, I’m all over them like a rash.
FAI-Most self-defence classes promote waiting until the opponent makes the first move . . .
GARY-Well, legally I suppose it then allows you to defend yourself but practically - it’s a different matter. Did you ever wait for people to start the proceedings if you ‘knew’ they were going to perform?
FAI-I’m interviewing you!
GARY- I’ll put it this way … I have scars all over me from ….. sticking things in me over the years and I sometimes get splitting headaches from the shoes, fists and assorted wooden objects that my head has stopped over a period of time. I try not to allow them even half a chance … if I ‘kick-off’ it’s because that is what it does take, to do what I do for as long as I have successfully done it.
Experience is a huge asset in this work. After twenty years, I can spot ‘them’ from a great distance off - sometimes I’m wrong but more often than not, I’m correct. And of the times when they don’t perform, a good percentage of them had every intention of, but something they see or ’sense’ in me, persuades them to change their mind. Remember, I have worked in many environments, around the world^ where 1 did not speak the language. To stay in one piece and keep hold of what belongs to you, you have to develop a sensitivity to attitudes and intentions of the people around you.
FAI-What sort of opponent do you find the most dangerous?
GARY-Well, they are all dangerous to a greater or lesser extent, but I know what you mean. It’s not down to their physical size - nor their actual capabilities that is the most important factor in my book . .. it’s who is the nastiest and most cunning - that’s the worst kind. Very often it’s the small guys who turn out to be most vicious, probably compensating for their lack of size. Then there are always exceptions like Mr. Farmer, who you may recall I had a major ‘difference of opinion’ with.
FAI-He’s dead now isn’t he?
GARY-Yes … but he was very much alive when 1 fought him. Farmer was, as you know, a notorious hard-case with a good 20 years of reputation preceding him. He was widely known throughout his home town as the ‘Terror of� Toxteth’ - and that’s what the national newspapers called him when they reported his death. He was around 6ft., usually over 18 stone (252 Ibs.) and he had been, in his time, a very able and hard heavyweight boxer, and he was quite willing to tight anybody. Very few people liked him but hardly anyone would tell him to his face - not even the other hard-cases - because he had battered a large percentage of them . . . some of them had had several return ‘matches’ with him and they had still ended up out of the game. He hadn’t taken many ’seconds’ in his fighting career. We are talking about a proper determined man who made a vocation - in between his prison stretches - of going around intimidating other people and, as often as not, giving them a really good bashing.
Anyway, a couple of years before he was killed in a street fight, me and him had a severe ‘do’.
FAI-Let’s have the full story . . .
GARY-How it got started was that he had knocked a girl unconscious on the dance floor of a place that I was working in …
FAI-Why?
GARY-She had refused to dance with him . . . lots of these people don’t need much reason to start performing . . . anyway, I don’t exactly know what had gone on prior to that
- all I was told was that Farmer had ‘kicked off’ upstairs. Now by the time I got up the two flights of stairs, there were two bodies stretched out on the floor - the girl had been joined by a little Indian doctor. He must have been all of 5 ft. but he was the only one in the room that had the guts to go over and remonstrate with Farmer over punching the girl. He had also been treated to a right-hander which had broken his glasses, his nose and also removed a few of his teeth. Now I did not touch Farmer at that stage, simply because I did not know then what had happened - I only found out later, I just said to him, “You have got to leave, boss”.
Now. even though I’d been told many times about how fast this fellow was with his hands … I still got ‘nailed’ He caught me with a real nice ‘hook’, right in the jaw. I have to be honest and say that I did not see it - Boom!, it was perfect.� ‘
FAI-Did it put you down?
GARY-No, it did not put me down - probably due to a combination of my rather large bone structure, the way I’m put together and to the fact that I’m not in the habit -mentally - of being put on my arse by people.
It did shake me though and I lost time - fractions of activity - but I was still able to take him to the floor. He should really have followed up on his lead with another shot but he was probably that used to ’sparking’ all and sundry with just the one shot, that he wasn’t geared to putting a combination-attack together. I ducked low, grabbed him behind the knee with one hand and pulled his foot out from under him and drove my shoulder into his groin . . . down he went and I was right on top of him. I automatically had him in a half-strangle - just a reflex action - now at that point I could have finished him there and then. I would have strangled him properly, wrenched his neck out or gouged him … or maybe all of those things, depending upon how well he stood up to a bit of ‘treatment’. But he had a little crew with him, who were Justly famous for their willingness to get into people with their Stanley knives - they were nicknamed ‘the Stanley Boys’. Obituaries have even been placed in the local newspaper for people who were alive -it was just designed to upset them. reading their own death notice in the paper - signed ‘Love from the Stanley Boys’. Now I believe you have to show a death certificate before they will publish the notice but you didn’t have to do this till recent years.
Now, I knew that had I started to do the ‘business’ on Farmer, I would probably have been cut to pieces -remember he was still conscious underneath me and I had not yet recovered from his punch. So I let him up, much against my wishes and he promptly challenged me to a ’straightener’ outside - just him and me. Rather than get involved in what possibly could have been a massacre -of me, because his mates were all around us - I agreed. I don’t like going outside the premises - there is much more chance of police involvement and also I knew that there was a possibility of my ending up on my own on the street with him and his pack. Even though I was working with people - there were other ‘bouncers’ on with me, one never realty knows what people will do in serious circumstances that just flare up instantly. Conditions can change, even amongst trusted colleagues and if for some reason your friends -whom you are relying on to ‘hop’ in - do not come to your assistance right away … you could easily be killed. Something that’s gone wrong at home . . . even a silly argument with their wife, before they come to the club that evening, can change a person’s mind about the determination with which he will do his job. The fear of physical reprisals and/or legal repercussions can also alter a man’s commitment to ‘performing’.
FAI-Have you ever had people - other bouncers - desert you in similar situations?
GARY-It has happened twice now in my life … I haven’t had it occur much, because I do take it very personally! (The interviewee sounded very menacing at this point, which suitably reinforced his sentiments.) Editor.
We went outside and I agreed not to kick him -somebody had obviously informed him of my ‘pedigree’ -he wanted ‘rules’, which to me is so much bullshit… when you fight, you fight, and that’s it. Anyway his people were there with him and several of them already had their hands in their pockets, obviously holding their working ‘tools’ . . . so he says, ‘We won’t kick” I said, “That will do me - let’s go!” So we started and as I charged, he punched and we ended up with my right forearm in his mouth - he bit me almost through to the bone whilst I held my right fist with my left hand and started smashing his head back against the wall behind him. His teeth were hurting me a lot but at the same time, he was nearly choking on my forearm. Well because he was biting me, he could not let go and as I was trying to knock the wall down with the back of his head, I instinctively put my knee into him twice . . . once in the stomach and once in the hip - I’d have had him in the groin properly with the next one. You see, I’d used a left and a right Hiza-geri to get a ‘fix’ on his position and the third one would have crushed ‘them’ for him. But my knee attacks brought savage threats from his gang - who by this time had apparently pulled their knives out. My colleagues had thankfully chosen to come out with me - for which I am eternally grateful - because even if they hadn’t, I’d have been obliged to go out anyway. I wouldn’t have particularly relished the idea but neither would I have backed down from this pack of …. I’m certain that it was only my people’s presence there that prevented the other team from tearing me to ribbons. Oh yes … I also gave him some elbow smashes in the gut with my left arm but because of the way our bodies were locked in, I couldn’t get any real heavy ’shots’ into him from that angle.
Now I was not able to knock him out. People have told me that he had been K.O’d but I have never met one who had actually done it. As it was though, he wound up that exhausted he was unable to continue, whereas I had ‘loads’ left in me. Now�I had great difficulty in restraining myself at this point from finishing the job off, when he was in this state. It flashed through my mind that if I did drop on his throat or his spleen with my knees - as I wanted to, or stomp him with a Fumikomi geri, that the incident would immediately escalate … so I left it at that. But he was well …… (adjective meaning ‘out of the game’. Editor.)
FAI- What’s with this dropping your knee on opponents - you seem quite fond of that technique . . .
GARY-Oh I am ‘quite fond’ of it as you put it. I think it’s a very valid technique - I’ll show you how I like to do it during the photo session later. !f you do it properly, you have every chance of breaking something on them. At the very least you severely wind them. I’ll tell you this - I have never done it to anybody and had them get up after it … at least not for a while and then not under their own steam, they have had to be carried away.
FAI-Did you have any further trouble with Mr. Farmer?
GARY-No I did not. . . I did tell him that if he came back for a return match, I would have to seriously consider crippling him permanently. Whether he believed me or not I don’t know but he never again performed in a place that I was looking after.� Several years after this, he went too far with someone and they killed him. The story�I heard was that he was busy engaging in one of his favourite pastimes - intimidation -and someone decided that enough was enough and whoomph!. . . there you are … a carving knife right under the arm and through the heart. . . and that was that. Period.
FAI-Have you ever used a blade of any description against people?
GARY-No … well yes - I suppose I have, but it’s just the way you put the question on me. It could make me sound really violent.
FAI-Oh, Heaven forbid that you should come over in that light, Gary. Actually, it was a loaded question because I know for a fact that you have used a katana (Japanese long sword) at least once . . .
GARY-Twice actually mate . . . but I never actually ‘used’ it on them - although at the time I certainly was prepared to do that, otherwise I wouldn’t have pulled it out. The first time was against an idiot who threatened me with this stupid little Stanley knife. Now I had been practicing on the premises, during the day. with one of my students who was interested in learning how to use a sword - I’d done some of this in Japan during my stay there. So this character had been refused admission by another member of staff at the front door. He became very abusive and by the time I put in an appearance, he was like a raving lunatic … I thought from the look of his eyes, he was on drugs. So he pulled this knife out and began brandishing it. along with all the ‘verbals’ -we were all going to be cut up into dogmeat etc., etc. So I told him, “Here you are, sport, I’ve got one of these myself,” and I produced my 4 ft. version and went at him. Well he wasn’t that much out of his skull that he wanted to play an Errol Flynn ‘game’ and he took off in the opposite direction….- to annoy someone else I suppose. I did pursue him because he had disturbed me and got me ’switched on’ but once again I had no luck at catching them.
The next occasion I had to take this same sword to work with me could have developed into something a lot more serious - if the opposition had had the ‘bottle’ to get into it. I was committed to it and so were they - they said -but when it actually came to the crunch, they ‘turned their arses on it’ (went in the opposite direction. Interpreter/Editor). Now this was a racial-motivated situation and I do not know what had led up to it, because I was brought into it half-way through. A group of people -who had been chosen for the job on the strength of their physical abilities and nastiness - turned up at a place one night and wrecked it good style. A couple of women had bought tickets, gone in and then opened the fire-exit doors. In came the team and people inside the place - customers, bar-staff, manager and bouncers were indiscriminately battered - several were stabbed and slashed with all manner of weapons. The place was smashed to bits and a promise made that they “would be back” the following weekend. This one incident suitably terrified everyone connected with the club, which up until then had been a very popular country-club with a nice clientele. Now I was immediately contacted by the company who owned the place
- they were properly ’sick’ about the whole affair - and I was asked to straighten the problem out. So I made attempts to defuse the situation by letting it be known on the nightclub ‘grapevine’ that everyone at the club was very impressed with the gang’s performance but that if they knew what was good for them, they had best not come back … not unless they wanted to become permanent fixtures in the place.
They chose not to take this advice - which was really sound advice - and they did come back. I was of course waiting for them. I had made it my business to be there every night since the attack. I was alone but I had with me the sharpest katana you could imagine. You know how well I used to sharpen my butchering knives for my slaughtering jobs in the meatworks . . . well I’d done as good a job on my old katana! I ‘copped’ for them in the car-park of the club. The instant they switched off the engines of their vehicles - there were three car-loads of them - I was on them. And I slashed most of the tyres on all the cars before they even knew what had hit them - I wanted to make sure that they stayed around for what I had in store for them. But their ‘bottles’ went and they chose not to get out of their vehicles - despite the fact that I saw at least one hatchet and a few baseball bats through the windows. The windscreens were going to go in next, as I intended to ‘do’ as many of them in as I possibly could, before they even got out from their seats … I’d have had to, you see, because of the amount of them. Anyway, in between screaming and blubbering, the drivers switched the engines back on and took off on the rims of their wheels rather than participate further. I should add that this lot were not kids, they were all adult males of a particular ethnic group and they did mean business . . . make no mistake about that. Despite threats of “It will be ’shooters’ next time,” this group has never returned to that place since.
So yes, I am worth the money that I get paid for this job. And it is a service that is very much needed. If a club-owner wishes to build up a good business, he has to not only put in a nice decor - lighting, sound-system etc. … he also has to make sure his customers are going to be protected against society’s lunatic element.
Now, I work on the basis that if people come to a place to participate in aggravation and violence, then the only way you can cope with it and at the same time preserve the behavioural standards of the decent people in the place, is to display better physical capabilities than the thugs . . . which I can do.
FAI-Are most of your opponents really tough, or do some of them merely ‘talk’ a good fight?
GARY-Over the last three or four years, with a few notable exceptions, I’d have to say that the individual levels of the people I have fought has been quite abysmal. Whilst they have been very willing to ‘get into it’ at the onset, once I got into them, it’s only been a matter of seconds before they have wanted to call it ‘quits’. So, as fighters, I have not rated them at all… One, because wanting to throw the towel in (Editor’s note. Boxing terminology - a losing boxer’s manager will sometimes throw a towel into the ring -signifying submission - to save the man from further punishment) so soon, means that their minds are not tough enough . . . and Two, the amount of medical attention they often need after the event, shows that their bodies weren’t much good either!
FAI-Do you have any advice - ‘fighting savvy* that you could pass on, as to how you see the best way of handling a good ‘puncher* or someone who wants to grapple?
GARY-Well, if you have the time to assess a potential opponent, you must then be cunning enough to completely oppose him with a totally different method to that which he is used to. So in other words, you’d try to get a boxer on the ground … if on the other hand, you knew your opponent to be a wrestler or a judo man, you’d try to kick pieces off him before he could get a hold of you - because if he does and he is good at his business, you have every chance of being beaten by him. Of course, the distance between you is very important - I’ve had good success against boxers by smashing up their knees - going for the cartilages on their leading leg with Kansetsu-geri (joint kicks). With one, or preferably both knees ‘gone’, they are usually not too interested in continuing.
Now if you are in close with a boxer, it’s of little use trying to outpunch or head-butt them, because that’s their ‘game’ - use a takedown on them, like I did with Farmer. If you are unfortunate enough to be real close to a wrestler, you’d better go for his eyes, ears, or his ‘bails’ before he secures a proper grip on you … and if you don’t do it right the first time, you’re unlikely to get a second chance with a capable wrestler because those fellows are bloody good!
FAI-Yes, I also rate wrestling highly, although on the negative side it is geared to a one-to-one situation, whereas karate for example, does teach techniques and principles against multiple opponents . . .
GARY-Yes, . . . well I’d rather not go into the relative merits of Karate or Kung Fu, with regard to street fighting, if you don’t mind.
FAI-What do you mean by that comment? You don’t sound too complimentary in your evaluation of karate’s effectiveness in the street.
GARY-It’s not the actual karate that I don’t rate - it’s the majority of the people doing it. Not all of them, of course, because some are really useful. But I have been around a great many karate people in my time and to be perfectly honest with you, no, I don’t rate them too highly for the ‘real stuff’ t wouldn’t put my money on ninety per cent of them - they don’t really have the mentality for it.
FAI-What do you put that down to?
GARY-Are you sure you want to continue on this subject? What about all your karate readers . .. they may not like what I have to say …
FAI-Let’s hear your critique - you are certainly qualified to comment on this aspect and I’ll always publish constructive criticism.
GARY-Well, a lot of it has to do with the training - that’s the way I see it. The continuous teaching of no-contact and the teaching of long, strenuous exercise, conditions the karate student’s mind to (a) miss the target or else merely touch it, and (b) to place too much stress on fitness levels rather than getting used to avoiding and/or absorbing a certain amount of pain and physical discomfort. Even after years and years of training, most of them have never been bitten, never had their eyes scratched, never been repeatedly hit hard, perhaps winded and then kicked when they are on the floor. A fellow who plays rugby - that’s one of the first things he’s going to do to you, smash into you with his full bodyweight and take all the air out of your body.
A wrestler is always being put in nasty punishing holds that he has to fight out of… a Judoman takes heavy throws, is arm-locked, dragged to the ground and strangled . . . boxers get the shit punched out of them on a regular basis . .. you know what I’m saying. They are all used to being knocked about - and that is what’s going to happen to you when you start getting into some street activity. Now if the first shot stuns and stops you in your tracks … if you are not conditioned to recovering from hard physical abuse, then you are going to be in great trouble. Whether it’s a lucky shot or a planned deliberate technique doesn’t matter if your opponent has got the courage to finish the job off once you are temporarily ‘out of it’ … that’s you - thankyou and goodnight! I think that the constant practice of deliberately not hitting each other in the karate dojo makes the participants more vulnerable than any other combative art!
FAI-I understand what you are saying … but the technique you rely most heavily upon in your fights is karate . . . so it’s never seemed to hinder you. Also, I know of other street-competent karateka . . .
GARY-Yes, but they have to be brought out of the no-contact system. As you get higher in the grades, the contact has to be taught to you. You have to learn to take an elbow in your ear … to being kneed in the stomach etc., etc. You can teach a hundred people to get the best level of competence that they possibly can by driving them through constant repetition of technique … but you cannot teach the ability that gives them the ‘edge’, so that after he or she has been severely hurt - by a weapon, a blow, a throw or whatever - to get up off the floor and get ‘in’ again. You must learn this yourself - you must expose yourself to circumstances where this is likely to happen - i.e. hard punishing contact training. You can’t actually be taught this - you can theoretically … but it is not the same thing.
FAI-You mean you have to go through the pain . . .
GARY-Yes,… definitely and decidedly! I have taken some good injuries in the course of learning my trade and whilst I certainly did not like it at the time - the experience of being hurt and of knowing I can still keep on ‘performing’ has given me a lot of confidence. Nowadays I’m very ‘into’ pain … avoiding it myself and putting other people through it rather than me!
FAI-So you feel that this ‘avoidance of pain’ is a negative factor in karate training?
GARY-Yes I do … at least once you are out of the beginner and intermediate stages of learning the art. Don’t you agree?
FAI-To a certain extent… of course I do. But being realistic - you can’t teach that stuff to people - they won’t stand for it. Start dishing out that kind of training -and you lose them even quicker than most of them would normally quit. It’s a rarity to find people who are willing to put up with the harsher forms of training.
GARY-Well there you go ‘digger’ … fighting is a tough game and karate - done properly - is a hard strenuous thing in which to earn your qualifications.
FAI-Do you not think that karate serves any purpose other than teaching people how to fight?
GARY-Now hold on … I didn’t say that. The determination to achieve a perfect technique - i.e. as in, say, winning a kata tournament, where you have no opposition apart from yourself - I think that this is bloody marvellous for your self-control and your physical ability. And for the average person who just wants to spend four or five hours a week, going up through a curriculum of learning the art, I think karate is just great. Also, by doing this, the average man or woman will reach a certain level of defensive ability. But if you are talking about someone putting himself on the line - as in entering the field of protective-security in any shape or form … then it’s a different matter. I firmly believe that they should expose themselves to as many forms of physical jeopardy as they possibly can - from boxing and kickboxing with the head-gear on, and then with it off… to aikido, ju-jitsu and the like, which will twist your joints and throw you in every conceivable way … to the rough-housing you get in judo and wrestling. What’s more, I think it an absolute necessity that anyone who sets himself up as a self-defence teacher should be able to do the ‘business’ himself.
FAI-Gary, before we move on to your favourite tactics for ‘dealing’ with people and your teaching methods . . . what are your views on kata training?
GARY-I love kata and I think they are excellent methods of teaching you maximum mobility - providing they are taught in a combative manner. Which means that you are taught, along with the moves, exactly what they are for. And then you have to learn to use them correctly in all the hundreds of different ways that are possible. I have used a lot of movements that are direct bunkei (applications) from the Goju kata in my time.
�[Gary demonstrates an application from a Goju-ryu kata]
In fact not too long ago I was very grateful to my teacher in Japan, who taught me this one particular application from a movement in a kata called ‘Seiyanchin’. Did you want to hear about another fight or have you got enough for the story?
FAI-No … please go on. How long ago did this one happen?
GARY-Well, it wasn’t that long ago actually. Now before we start, I considered this to be a real vicious and unprovoked attack and so I’m not at all sorry about the end result. I was standing in this area that I ‘look after’ - it’s an outdoor arcade actually, part of a big entertainment complex - and these two big blokes walked straight up to me. As they got to within a few feet of me, one of them sticks out his hand for a hand-shake, smiles and says, “Hi, Gary, how are you mate?” They almost had me! I halfway reached out to take his hand, then realized that the other one was sliding around to my side. I started to move and the one in front quickly grabbed both of my arms above the elbows - pinning them to my sides. Meanwhile his colleague had whipped a sizeable piece 0f iron scaffolding out from under his raincoat and promptly swung it at my head. I’m telling you, it would have taken my head off had it landed … it was a nice, well-rehearsed double-act, from the friendly direct approach, to the arm grab - which is a good one - I have used it myself many times. Fortunately I saw it coming and was able to pivot and twist into the blow, jerking the one who had hold of me, around as well. The tube missed because I’d moved in close to the one who was swinging it and his arms -it was a two-handed job - hit my shoulder which made him drop the weapon. I was then able to use this particular double-arm disengagement to break free of the grip and finished the kata movement off perfectly by jamming both of my thumbs into his eyeballs . . . and that ‘cured’ him completely! The other…. was that close to me, he had no other option but to grab me - which he did. He tried to put a silly head-lock on - well I love people getting affectionate like that … I butted him that hard in the side of his head that I saw ’stars’ myself and then I bit him right through the cheekbone. I should really have picked up what they had brought along to ‘do me in’ with, to keep as a memento, but at the time my major concern was in vacating the area! I wish I’d got it though - it was a beauty - quite thin iron tubing but heavy, about 3 ft. long with a big jutting-out piece like a construction joint or something. It would have definitely crushed anything it hit - this was a really serious attempt to give me a ‘permanent’ headache.
So if I hadn’t done my homework on ‘Seiyunchin’, I might have been flicking my bottom lip up and down now instead of doing this interview …
FAI-Well, I’m certainly glad you ‘made it’ - apart from any other consideration, I think it’s a really interesting and entertaining story.
Let’s move on to your best techniques - the ones that you have developed over your many years of ‘field-testing’ …
GARY-O.K. … however, some of the stuff I do and the way I do it, works for me because of my size and because of the hard physical work I used to do. Remember, I spent a lot of my early life slaughtering and butchering in the meatworks. Now in the course of a day you have to push, drag and wrestle up to one hundred animals into a position to kill them. Sometimes when you were working with sheep, you’d have to cut and then punch the fleece off the sheep’s body with your bare hands. Now your knuckles get skinned and your hands and forearms get ripped from all the bone splinters. The pain tells you to stop, but if you want to get paid that day and keep the job, you have to continue. So that sort of gruelling work, if you stick at it. has a tendency to toughen you up considerably and it made me very powerful for close-in fighting.
I like to start - given the choice - from a totally negative posture, hands down by my sides and in Heiko dachi (parallel stance). No build-up, no talking, no threatening - just right into it… as explosive a movement as I can possibly make. Now I personally like to charge in on my opponents rather than use long-range kicks. I can kick, and I have kicked people and ‘put them away’ in the past but I just don’t feel as comfortable with kicks as I’d like to. I like to close in with people fast and ‘tie-up’ their hands to prevent them using a weapon on me - I always assume they have one and that way I’m not taken by surprise. More and more people are ‘tooled-up’ nowadays.
I must say here that I have got nothing against long-range kicks or high kicks - I know that performed well by the right person, they work fine… it’s just that I find them risky. When I was in Japan, in Mr. Yamaguchi’s dojo and then Mr. Higaonna’s dojo, it took me years before I had the confidence to try and pull off a Jodan Mawashi gen (roundhouse kick to the head). I’d always stick to Mae-geri (front kicks) if they were in front of me and Yokogeri (side kicks) if they moved to my left or right. But really, when you are training in Asia, you learn to defend against really good kickers but you have a difficult time becoming a good kicker yourself. Because from the Rei (bow), they nearly always attack immediately - so therefore you are always defending. At least that’s how I found it to be. The Japanese are fast, they are supple, super-fluid with their legs and so consequently they use lots of kicking techniques to get in on you. The only way that I could effectively stop them was to beat them off the mark - charge in on them as soon as the Rei was over and get them on the ground. And that tactic of charging in has, in practical situations of violence over the last 12 years or so, proved to be one of the most effective things that I learnt in Japan. Believe me, I’d have been glassed and bottled and stabbed a lot more times than I have been, had it not been for my ability to instantly dash in close to opponents and ‘polish’ them off at close quarters. If I need to get hold of them, I prefer catching them on their left side because most people are right-handed. Of course, all of this depends on the particular situation … but once I have hold, I inevitably spin them off-balance or to an unfavourable body angle … I can use all sides of my body - most people can’t.
See, when I work on a bag - I use a full-length 8 ft. kickboxing bag - I don’t just hit it, I grapple with it as well . . . lifting it, pulling, pushing as well as, of course, punching, kicking and butting it. I just attack the bag as if it were a giant person and i get ‘into’ it with everything - you name it and I use it on the bag - shoulders, shins, knees, forearms, even my arse!
�
[Gary on the heavy bag, with Dennis Martin, training in Denmark, 1972]
�I have my students move around me holding air-bags, so that I can practice putting good solid shots and combinations into them from every conceivable angle. I also have them doing the same thing.
Now I have never had much success at locking wrists and applying aikido-style holds on people in fast, ‘live’ situations - maybe some people can, after years and years of practice, I don’t know. For me, I have to stick to elbows and knees … I can hook strongly with either hand … I like Teisho (palm-heel strikes) … I instinctively head butt opponents in the face or body, as soon as the distance is right… I use Empi (elbow) against head butts coming at me or Nukite (finger strikes) for the ‘peepers’ (eyes. Editor.) I have already told you that I often use Kansetsu gen against the leading knee … I’ll sometimes Ashi’barai (foot sweep) them and when they are down, I often find myself stomping on their elbows and knees before dropping a knee, or two, into them.
In my dojo I will often have my students just trying to block and stay out of my way, whilst I chase after them trying to kick, punch, sweep and grab them - it’s good training for both them and me.
Sometimes I have had four or five of them leap on me in a totally non-prearranged fashion, so that I can ‘tune in* my body to getting out of situations like that - which I am quite likely to find myself in, during any night of the week.
FAI-Any final suggestions on how you feel a karateka can improve his chances of surviving in the street… the sort of advice you give to your students?
GARY-Only to recap on what I have just said: If you don’t already do bag-work, start right away Get yourself a super-large kick bag and practice all your techniques on it from ranges of 1 ft. away to 8 ft. away .. . learn to apply the techniques slowly and rhythmically with correct footwork that takes you around- the bag in both directions. As you get more conversant with it, begin giving it some real ’stick’, whilst at the same time protecting your ribs and lungs by keeping your elbows tucked in close to your body .. . and protect your groin and stomach by lifting your knees.
Another good training tool is the Makiwara (striking board) which you should hit with everything from the long-range Oi-zuki (lunge punch) to Ura-zuki (short punch) from very close.
You should ‘condition’ your arms and legs to the reality of being bruised and hurt by strenuous blocking practice. A Wing Chun dummy would be great for that, if you were working alone.
As a final comment on this, I’d say that going into the dojo with the correct, serious attitude is vitally important. If you are not careful, there will be a lack of realism in training. Students are generally very co-operative in the dojo whereas, outside, - nobody is. I make my students really put the techniques in if their opponents forget to move or block, or do whatever is called for in that situation. They have to be made to understand that they may lose half their face at one shot!
FAI-Do you have any specific advice on dealing with a person coming at you with a weapon - a knife for example?
GARY-My personal thing is, if you can’t hit him with anything -a chair, a table, a lamp-stand, - then as he comes at you, charge in and trap his weapon hand - half-turn him away from you and take the opportunity, if it’s possible, to push him down anything - like a flight of stairs, out of anything - like a window, or under something - like a passing vehicle. I teach my students a particular method that was taught to me by the two Korean teachers I told you about (Part One, Issue No. 38. Editor) in which you have to get control of the weapon hand and concentrate, no matter what, in holding that weapon in the opponent’s own hand - even if it means getting your own hand cut in the process. You do it by locking his thumb against the knife,. . . you then bend his elbow in a circular motion and plunge the weapon back into him. In other words, you can give him what he intended’to give you - nice, instant justice, don’t you think?
You obviously don’t agree because you have gone quiet - for a change.
FAI-No, it’s not that… I’m in complete agreement with you that anybody who tries to stick a knife in you, deserves a taste of it themselves. I’m all for ‘an eye for an eye’ … I’m just thinking about the follow-up problems -like explaining these tactics and the ‘kill or get killed’ attitude to a judge and Jury, and perhaps even a coroner.
GARY-Well that’s a consideration of course but I’m not going to lose sleep over it. If I take the time to think about all that might happen to me afterwards, I’d be unable to do the job I’m doing, as effectively as I now do it. Nobody in their right mind wants that type of aggravation in their lives. But as I have told you before - if it is a situation of them or me - then I have no hesitation whatsoever. When somebody tries to stick a blade in me, or cave my skull in with an iron bar … and they fail to complete the job, then they are in for the most savage retaliation that I can possibly dish out . .. and that’s a promise!
FAI-What would you say to someone who accused you of setting a bad example of a martial artist, by the work that you do and the life that you lead?
GARY-Bullshit! … that’s what I’d say to them. To my understanding, the original Asian concept of the martial arts - was for defence against unwarranted attack . . . right? And the epitome of a martial artist was the Japanese Samurai… and what were they employed as? … fighters, that’s what. What were the best Chinese fighters doing to earn their living? . .. working as caravan guards for the Emperor and for rich merchants. The best-trained warriors were hired for their fighting abilities to protect the welfare of people who couldn’t do it themselves, and I have made a living out of doing exactly the same thing. I give a perfectly legitimate service to the best of my ability to my employers and I believe that, over the years, I have saved an untold number of people from injury. And I bet that I have discouraged quite a few idiots who - had they been successful on the night I ran into them - would probably have gone on to cause a lot of trouble for other people who would have been unable to ‘cure’ them as well as I did.
FAI-As a final question . . . would you describe yourself as a violent man?
GARY-No … I would not. You see, I have gone through the last ten years of personal private life and travel without getting involved in one silly, even harsh verbal incident - outside of my professional working time. And during my work. remember, I am only reacting to the actions of other people. I was brought up correctly in a civilized, disciplined environment and 1 would never dream of sticking a broken glass in someone’s face. The concepts that are subscribed to in the dojo - purity of thought and development of the self etc., etc. … are all well and good … but reality is somewhat different. My place is the street and the type of people that I come up against - the scum that 1 have been describing to you for the past 4 hours - they do change your outlook somewhat. You have to adapt to the society that you are in. So I do not see myself as a violent person … no.
�
[The last photo we have of Gary, shortly before his untimely death. Photo taken by Paddy Phillips, a good friend of Gary, Terry and Den]
Gary, thank you for a very interesting interview.� I wish you continued success in staying on top’.
Thanks ‘digger’ . .. ! fully intend to do just that.
This interview was done by Terry O’Neil